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Subtlety Rogue Guide for WoW Forever

Subtlety Rogue for WoW Forever: an Ambush leveling build to 30, Thousand Cuts PvE and Preparation PvP builds at 60, with openers and rotation.

RogueSubtletyLevelingPvPPvERaidsDungeonsDPS

By stillsixty staffUpdated

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Variants

Overview

Subtlety is the Stealth spec: you choose when the fight starts, you start it with more Combo Points than anyone else, and you leave when you want to. In WoW Forever it's also a real damage spec. Hemorrhage now deals 145% weapon damage with a dagger and makes your own Rupture hit 15% harder. Thousand Cuts makes every Rupture tick cheapen your next Backstab or Hemorrhage, and Cutthroat lets a Backstab set up an Ambush outside of Stealth.

Your openers carry the spec. Initiative now adds an extra Combo Point to every Ambush, Garrote and Cheap Shot at 3/3, Improved Ambush adds 45% crit chance to Ambush, and Premeditation hands you 2 points for free. Pair them with Preparation, which resets every other Rogue cooldown, and you get two full openers per fight.

Strengths

  • Huge openers: Premeditation, Ambush and Initiative put 4 Combo Points on a target before it can react.
  • Total control over PvP fights: Sap, Cheap Shot, Kidney Shot, Gouge and Blind, with Preparation to do it all twice.
  • In the leveling and PvP builds, Setup at 3/3 turns every dodge into a Combo Point, and Ghostly Strike adds 15% dodge for 7 seconds.
  • Cheap crowd control: Dirty Tricks halves the cost of Sap and Blind, and Elusiveness cuts 90 seconds off the cooldown of Vanish and Blind.
  • A Rupture-and-Backstab PvE build at 60 that keeps Rupture, Hemorrhage and Thousand Cuts feeding each other.

Weaknesses

  • Your damage peaks in the first seconds of a fight. A long fight without Vanish or Preparation levels the field.
  • Ambush and Backstab need a dagger in your main hand and you behind the target.
  • More buttons than any other Rogue spec: Rupture, Hemorrhage, Slice and Dice and your openers all need timing.
  • Your sustained damage depends on keeping Rupture, Hemorrhage and Slice and Dice all running at once.
  • Several tier 1 and tier 2 talents only matter in Stealth. PvE builds spend points there to reach the talents they want.

What's new in Forever

New in Forever
  • Hemorrhage is reworked: 100% weapon damage (145% with a dagger), 35 Energy, 1 Combo Point, and the target takes 15% more damage from your Rupture for 15 seconds. It no longer buffs the group's Physical damage.
  • Thousand Cuts (tier 7, requires Preparation): each Rupture tick makes your next Hemorrhage or Backstab within 10 seconds cost 3 less Energy, stacking up to 5 times.
  • Cutthroat (tier 6): Backstab has a 15% chance to let your next Ambush within 10 seconds skip the Stealth requirement.
  • Quietus (tier 6, requires Dirty Deeds): Sinister Strike, Ghostly Strike and Hemorrhage deal 10% more damage to targets below 35% health.
  • Dirty Tricks (tier 2): Sap and Blind cost 50% less Energy.
  • Ghostly Strike deals 180% weapon damage with a dagger in your main hand.
  • Initiative is 100% at 3/3, Setup is 100% at 3/3, and Premeditation points last 20 seconds.
  • Serrated Blades ignores a flat 9% of armor and adds 30% Rupture damage.
  • Dirty Deeds at 2/2 also removes Garrote's requirement to stand behind the target.
  • Camouflage cuts Stealth's speed penalty by 15% and its cooldown by 6 seconds at 5/5.
  • Distract now lowers the Stealth detection of the mobs it hits, and Improved Distract widens its radius and lowers their detection further.

Talents

The leveling build. Every pull starts from Stealth with an Ambush crit and an extra Combo Point, and from 30 Hemorrhage replaces Sinister Strike. Level with a dagger in your main hand: Ambush and Backstab need one.

Split 0/0/21 · 21 points at level 30 · Open in calculator

Assassination

0 points

Combat

0 points

Subtlety

21 points

Talent order

  1. Levels 10–11: 2/2 Opportunity. +10% damage for Backstab, Garrote and Ambush, the three attacks you open with.
  2. Levels 12–14: 3/5 Camouflage. A faster Stealth and a 4-second shorter cooldown on it. You walk from mob to mob in Stealth, so this is time saved on every pull.
  3. Levels 15–17: 3/3 Improved Ambush. +45% crit chance on Ambush. You train Ambush at 18.
  4. Levels 18–19: 2/3 Setup. A 67% chance to gain a Combo Point every time you dodge.
  5. Levels 20–22: 3/3 Initiative. Every Ambush, Garrote and Cheap Shot awards an extra Combo Point.
  6. Level 23: 1/1 Ghostly Strike. 180% weapon damage with a dagger and +15% dodge for 7 seconds, every 20 seconds.
  7. Level 24: 3/3 Setup. Every dodge is now a Combo Point, and Ghostly Strike makes those dodges common.
  8. Levels 25–27: 3/3 Serrated Blades. Your attacks ignore 9% of armor and Rupture hits 30% harder. It's also the requirement for Hemorrhage.
  9. Level 28: 1/1 Premeditation. 2 free Combo Points every 2 minutes. With Ambush and Initiative, that's a 4-point opener.
  10. Level 29: 4/5 Camouflage. The point that unlocks tier 5.
  11. Level 30: 1/1 Hemorrhage. 35 Energy for 145% weapon damage with a dagger. It replaces Sinister Strike.

Flexible points

  • Fighting mostly Humanoids? Take 2/2 Dirty Tricks in place of Setup's last point and the fourth Camouflage point, and Sap a mob out of every pack for half the Energy.
  • Mobs keep spotting you before you reach them? Move three Camouflage points into 3/3 Master of Deception. Mobs detect you as if you were 3 levels higher.

Races

Best races

Alliance: Night Elf. Quickness makes you harder to detect in Stealth as if you were 1 level higher, on top of 1% dodge and 2% movement speed. Shadowmeld hides you while you stand still, on a 10-second cooldown out of combat, and Elune's Light adds 10% crit for 15 seconds, right when your opener lands.

Alliance PvP alternative: Human. Will to Survive removes every stun every 3 minutes, and Perception dramatically increases your Stealth detection for 20 seconds to find the other Rogue first.

Horde PvP: Undead. Will of the Forsaken breaks Fear, Charm and Sleep every 2 minutes, which answers Warlocks and Priests. Touch of the Grave gives your attacks a 5% chance to drain health.

Horde PvE: Orc. Blood Fury adds 10% Attack Power for 15 seconds every 2 minutes, which covers a whole opener. Hardiness shortens stuns on you by 20%.

All playable races

Rotation

The Stealth pull

  1. Approach in Stealth. Get behind the mob.
  2. From 28, Premeditation first.
  3. Open with Ambush: 45% more crit chance and 2 Combo Points with Initiative. With Premeditation, you have 4 points after one button.
  4. Slice and Dice or Eviscerate depending on the mob's health, then build again with Ghostly Strike on cooldown and Hemorrhage (from 30) or Sinister Strike before it.
  5. Finish with Eviscerate.

Setup and Ghostly Strike

Ghostly Strike's 15% dodge makes Setup fire often against melee mobs. Use Ghostly Strike first after the opener, so the dodge buff covers the part of the fight when the mob is swinging.

Downtime

Restealth as soon as the mob dies. With 4/5 Camouflage, Stealth is back in 5 seconds. Eat out of combat, then walk to the next mob in Stealth.

When it goes wrong

Gouge the second mob, Evasion if you're losing, and Vanish (from 22) to reset.

Stat priority

Leveling

  1. Main-hand dagger damage
  2. Agility
  3. Attack Power
  4. Stamina

Ambush is 250% of your main-hand weapon's damage, Ghostly Strike 180% and Hemorrhage 145%. Your dagger is most of your damage. Agility gives Attack Power, crit and dodge, and dodge is a Combo Point with Setup.

Gear

Weapons

A dagger in your main hand, always. Take the one with the highest top-end damage, not the fastest. Your off hand can be any one-hand weapon, since it only swings and carries poison.

Poisons

From 20, Instant Poison on both weapons: its damage lands instantly on mobs that die fast. At 30, move Deadly Poison to your off hand. Every Rogue learns Coup de Grace at 30, so your Eviscerates deal 2% more damage per Deadly Poison stack. Keep a Crippling Poison dose in your bags for mobs that run at low health.

Armor and ranged

Leather with Agility and Stamina. Carry a thrown weapon such as a Heavy Throwing Dagger to pull a mob out of a group.

Professions

Leatherworking and Skinning carries you to 60: Skinning pays for the leveling and Leatherworking makes your armor, including the Devilsaur pair.

At 60, swap Skinning for Alchemy, for PvP and PvE alike. Alchemists make their own Free Action Potion, Limited Invulnerability Potion and Swiftness Potion, which PvP Rogues burn through, and Elixirs of the Mongoose for raids.

For gold, Skinning and Mining. Your Pick Pocket and Lockpicking pay extra on every Humanoid-heavy quest area.

Group play and dungeons

  • Scout the pull. Walk the room in Stealth before the tank pulls, and mark what needs to be Sapped.
  • Sap before combat. From Stealth, Sap lasts up to 45 seconds at max rank on a Humanoid out of combat, doesn't break Stealth, and costs half with Dirty Tricks. Damage breaks it, so keep AoE away from the Sapped mob.
  • Distract a patrol away from the group. Distract turns every nearby enemy toward it for 10 seconds.
  • Kick and Blind casters and runners.
  • Open locks and disarm traps with Pick Lock and Disarm Trap.
  • Feint after your opener. A crit Ambush pulls threat fast. Feint lowers it.

PvP

Subtlety is built for PvP. Every fight you choose starts with a stun, and Preparation gives you a second try at a fight that goes wrong.

  • Open on the healer or the caster, never the Warrior. Cheap Shot, Kidney Shot and a Cold Blood Eviscerate kill a cloth wearer inside one stun chain.
  • Sap the second enemy first. Two players plus one Sap is a one-on-one.
  • Count your stuns. Cheap Shot is 4 seconds, Kidney Shot 6 at 5 points. A Human removes them with Will to Survive, and an Orc takes 20% less from each.
  • Save Vanish for roots and slows. Vanish breaks movement impairing effects. Vanish, then re-open with Cheap Shot. Sap only works on a target that isn't in combat, so it's for the start of a fight, not the middle.
  • Darkspear Islands is Forever's new 15v15 battleground, open from level 30.

Tips

Walk in Stealth

Stealth has a 10-second cooldown, down to 4 seconds with 5/5 Camouflage (the battleground swap in the PvP build). Restealth after every kill and walk to the next mob. The Ambush opener is worth the slower walk.

Damage breaks Sap, Gouge and Blind

Poisons, Blade Flurry, a party member's AoE or your own Rupture all break them. Before you Gouge or Blind a target, make sure nothing of yours is ticking on it.

Refresh Hemorrhage before Rupture, not after. Hemorrhage's 15% bonus applies to Rupture's ticks while the debuff is up. A Rupture that outlasts its Hemorrhage loses the bonus for the rest of its duration.

Spend Cutthroat procs immediately. You have 10 seconds, and an Ambush with Improved Ambush and Initiative is your best attack.

Premeditation points last 20 seconds. Use it, open, and spend the points before they fade.

Train Ambush at every new rank. Ranks come at 18, 26, 34, 42, 50 and 58.

Macros

Ambush from Stealth, Hemorrhage otherwise.

Ambush or Hemorrhage
#showtooltip
/cast [stealth] Ambush; Hemorrhage

Premeditation and Cheap Shot in one press.

Premeditated Cheap Shot
#showtooltip Cheap Shot
/cast Premeditation
/cast Cheap Shot

Sap your focus target, or your current target if you have no focus.

Focus Sap
#showtooltip Sap
/cast [@focus,harm,nodead][] Sap

Blind your focus target, so you can Blind the healer without losing your target.

Focus Blind
#showtooltip Blind
/cast [@focus,harm,nodead][] Blind

Stops your auto attack and vanishes.

Clean Vanish
#showtooltip Vanish
/stopattack
/cast Vanish

Changelog

  • Guide published with Level 30, Level 60 PvE and Level 60 PvP builds.

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